Anyone else agree with me, I love the fact that Michael just hates Toby in every possible moment. He is always telling him to leave, and I think it is hilarious. Except in the episode with the Take Your Daughter to Work Day, when he wants to be the Godfather of Toby's daughter. Anyway, just an observation I haven't seen anyone else mention.

Yes, I also like that story line.

Toby disapproved of Michael's taking Jim to Hooters, remember? Refused to pay for that memorable lunch.

hahah YES, no wonder Michael doesn't like Toby.. he controls the money and Michael often wants to spend money on ridiculous things... also, Toby didn't remember Michael's birthday, hahaha ouch... oh, and he's not a part of the office family.. nor of his own... lol

Does anyone have any idea what transpired between the two. Michael is just so nasty to him.

In Michael's own words (from Sexual Harrassment) "Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for Corporate, so he's really not part of our family." He then digs deeper and says that Toby just got divorced, so technically he's not part of his OWN family. (How evil!)

I think that Toby represents the corporate rules and policies that Michael doesn't really care for, because according to said rules, almost everything Michael does or says would be a violation. Michael wants to be the provider of office fun and commaraderie - Toby is there to remind him that no, he is actually there to manage the office, which is not always "fun."

lol digging quite deep there. If you ask me, Michael is mean to Toby because he's hilariously mean.

I think it's because Michael desperately wants to get married and have kids. Toby was married, but for whatever reason, ended his marriage.

I think Micheal Hates Toby because it make the show funny as heck!!!

All great reasons, and I think all true. Also, I think he picks on him for the same reason that any bully picks on others, because he has self esteem issues and fights them by picking on anyone who will not defend himself. Toby is a very quiet person, who doesn't put up much of a fight, and just hopes things go away or work themselves out.

I think the real question should be "Why does Micheal LIKE RYAN so much?"

There's no digging. Go back and watch some earlier episodes, like Sexual Harrassment. Toby's always having to tell Michael that a line has been overstepped and some corporate intervention is necessary.

At any rate, I'm not an HR manager, but it seemed odd to me that Toby WROTE DOWN all those complaints. Both Jim and Kelly said that they didn't know Toby would write down what they told him and in fact didn't seem to think they were even lodging formal complaints. Maybe Michael should be a little meaner to Toby!

As for Toby putting the complaint box in the warehouse, I'm pretty certain THAT'S not compliant with ANY company's HR policies! lol!

I agree with officianada... hit the nail on the head.

Toby is Michael's foil. He doesn't work for Michael which already alienates him and Toby does indeed represent corporate rules and policies that Michael hates.

"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell out of here."

"Here's the thing about cage matches. Sometimes you have to open the cage and that is something that Toby will never understand."

I love how they give Michael lines that are so hysterical, yet at the same time border on the profound!

Toby looked like he really enjoyed beating Michael at the tables tonight! The TobyMichael conflict is hysterical.

"I'm gonna chase that feeling"

One of my FAVORITE quotes. One I often wish I could use on my oldest son when he is picking on...or correcting his younger brothers....but at 13, I probably shouldn't feed the flames.

Most articulate Michael quote on this theme came last night right after Toby rattled off all the reasons it would be inappropriate to have the Boy Scouts come to Casino Night to pick up the check (gambling, alcohol, dangerous warehouse, Hooters catering...)

Michael: "Why are you the way that you are? Honestly, everytime I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it NOT that way. I hate so much about the things that you choose to be."

Hysterical!

Jenna stated the following in her blog.

"There is no particular reason. By that I mean, there wasn't a certain incident that started the feud. Basically, Michael is jealous of Toby. Toby is respected and well liked by the people in the office. He is even funny sometimes. People confide in him. These are all the things Michael wants, so he hates Toby. It all started in the second episode of the first season, "Diversity Day." Michael calls everyone into the conference room for a meeting. On the way in, Toby makes a joke and everyone laughs. Michael throws him out. He pretends like it is because he is offended that Toby is making a joke during a serious office meeting, but the real reason is because it got a laugh. Plus, Toby reports directly to the corporate office. Michael doesn't really have any power over him. And in some ways Toby has power over Michael because he can report Michael's crazy antics to corporate. This makes Michael feel insecure and powerless around Toby. And Michael hates that. Or, in other words, he hates Toby."

The whole Toby/Michael feud is just one of the excellent sub-plots of this show.

I agree with some of the earlier folks. Michael seems like a big kid. He has his own power trip and doesn't like that Toby represents authority.

But no matter how bad Michael gets, I don't think he's evil. He was kind to Jim about his feelings for Pam on the Booze Cruise. I've watched the BBC Office and the Michael character (David) is a really evil. David once told the Dawn (Pam) character that she was being let go, just as a joke.

Michael told Pam she was being let go as a joke also.
Both the BBC version and the NBC version had the same story line for the pilot episode. They just changed some of the wordingterminology to make it more understandable to us on this side of the pond. For example..
Redundancies v.s. downsizing
Dawn calls David a wanker v.s. Pam calls Michael a jerk.

I love Toby and how he just punks Michael all the time. I hope to see more of him.

You gotta chase that feeling.

I just uploaded my new fan video on this topic...one of my favorites:

Everything About You - A Video Celebrating the Toby and Michael Scott Relationship

Enjoy!

Very nice, Officionada! Thank you!

OMG, haha..Very nice video. I really like it!!!

Oh and thanks to whoever posted that section from Jenna's blog.

Clearly, from watching The Office; one should have the ability to tell that Toby likes to follow the rules where as Michael enjoys shaking the rules up.

That video was excellent! Thanks for sharing the link...

What did you use to make that?

As a former HR Manager, first of all, I cannot believe an office that small even HAS an HR person. Even if you count the warehouse people. Usually the boss is also HR, or an HR manager has other duties and reports to the regional as well as corporate bosses. OR they only have corporate HR, who visits each branch once a week or so.

As for Toby writing things down, we were told to record ALL private employee-related conversations. This is to:
A. have documentation that may support any further accusations and
B. cover your own a$$ so you cannot be accused later of either not addressing an issue or you yourself being harassed.

But I don't like Toby. I think he is creepy. Almost as creepy as Creed. And I LOVE the Grassroots! But Creed is still icky.

Michael just doesn't like anyone having more / different power from him. He wants to be in control.

I used Nero Vision. I think Widows Movie Maker can do a lot of the same things Nero can, but I prefer Nero. Thanks for the feedback!

VBARKLEY - Thanks to your explanation, I can see the need to document those things. I guess I'm just so used to working in a small company where we all get along - The Office reminds me of my former life out there in a much bigger pond.

And I agree, Paul Lieberstien does a good job of making Toby a less than palatable character.

I've noticed that Michael always seems to bring up Toby's divorce. Is he anti-divorce, or does he just do it because he hates Toby so much? He never seems to mention Jan's divorce and there must be other people in the office who've split up, so it seems a little like he's more anti-Toby than anti-divorce. What does everyone think? Just curious.

Definitely anti-Toby.

"Your solution to everything is to get a divorce."

We know for a fact that Stanley has been divorced because his daughter tells Pam that the woman we all know as his wife is not her mother. But Michael never talks about it, personally I think it is partially because Michael is intimidated by Stanley. Either way, I think Michael really deeply dislikes Toby - for whatever reason - and he knows that divorces are rough, and he purposely goes for the jugular.

The divorce is the only evidence Michael has that Toby has ever failed at anything. It's all the ammunition he can gather to use against his arch-nemesis.

What Michael fails to grasp is that Toby works at Dunder Mifflin, he's probably failed at many things.

I don't get it! Michael HATES Toby so incredibly much! Please post your favorite Michael/Toby moments.
My favorite: Casino Night:
Michael: And we, at the end of the night, are going to give the check to an acual group or Boy Scouts, right Toby?
Toby: Acually I didn't think it was appropriate to invite children. Since, there's gambling and alcohol in a dangerous warehouse, it's a school night, and Hooters is catering. Is that enough?
Michael: Why are you the way that you are? Honestly, every time I try to do something fun, or exciting, you make it...not..that...way. I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.

POST YOUR FAVORITE TOBY/MICHAEL MOMENTS!!

(in reference to Kevin's skin cancer treatment)
Michael: And laughter...also.
Toby: I don't really think people are in the laughing mood.
Michael: Why are you here? I didn't even invite you to my birthday party.
Toby: I work here...
Michael: Ehh...okay. Alright. Well, you know what since Toby doesn't speak for everybody and I am your boss, I think you should just go home. Take the rest of the afternoon off. Take a sick day.
Kevin: If I go home now, I'll just drive myself crazy.
Michael: Well, your pretty much driving everybody else here crazy... crazy with worry.

We had a pretty decent discussion on this a couple of weeks ago.

http://boards.nbc.com/nbc/index.php?showto...234&hl=toby

I like any of the moments where Michael comments on Toby's divorce.

PS
Do you think michael might hate toby because he was married and has a kid, and michael really wants a wife and kids? is it jealousy?

just thinking out loud.

favorite moment

the fight
toby: we want to go home
MIchael: toby u dont have anybody to go home to
might not be perfect but it went something like that

I just went back to the older thread (referenced by Diapers, above) and was cracking up. The observations in there are worth a read. (Or re-read?)
Two of my favorite Michael quotes to Toby:
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get out of here."
And the very quiet remark during "Boys and Girls"
"Toby, you're a guy, sort of..."

I just merged the older post (linked to in Diapers' message) with the newer one...I hope it doesn't throw anybody off!

[indent] I think an interesting aspect has been the way Michael treats Toby. Why does he hate him? I think an ongoing thing during the season with some hints that leads up to an explanation would be cool. What does everyone think? And it is great to read The Office message boards, since I crack up every time and I enjoy everyone's point of view. I am a rook, so be gentle...



Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it not, that way. I hate, so much about the things that you choose to be.

(Good move, Offi...not confusing.)
----------------------------


There was another VERY dramatic scene between Michael and Toby that I haven't see mentioned (might've missed it?). It happened when the office was getting their ID photos taken....

When it was Michael's turn to sit and pose, he slowly locked onto Toby peering at him from the other side of the blinds...and we saw Michael's expression turn into something that seemed to say far more than any words between the two of them ever had.

I'm not sure exactly what Michael was thinking at that moment, but his look said "painfully caught and totally bewildered" to me.
----------------------------

SideTrivia: I joined NBC boards 2 months ago yesterday, so by subtracting my 'Member No.' from ThatsWhatSheSaid's No. (above), we can sees that 28,655+ folks joined up after I did...which clearly proves that I'm a natural born leader.

Can anyone explain why Michael and Toby hate each other so bad. Maybe I have missed something but it just seems that there is something more than work going on there.

I can't pinpoint any one incident, but this is the relationship the way I see it:

Toby is Michael's polar opposite. Michael (being the way he is) creates more HR paperwork for Toby, but Toby shows no emotion-zip- and that must make Michael crazy. Michael feeds off the reaction and attention he gets from others (whether it be good or bad) and Toby dosen't give him the satisfaction.

I think on the DVD commentary for Season 2, they explain that Steve Carell just felt that an unexplainable hatred for Toby from Michael. I don't think there was any incident...you know how some people just rub you the wrong way and you don't know why? It wasn't originally written in, but it came from Steve Carell's instincts and the writers went with it.

When you think about it, Toby kind of has the job that Michael seems to wish he had. Being human resources, he pretty much is supposed to be everyone's friend. And considering the enormous number of complaints that Michael found in 'Conflict Resolution', obviously everyone in the office feels comfortable venting to Toby. However, Michael has proven that he's totally incapable of handling such delicate situations day to day. It really makes you appreciate how difficult Toby's work is, too, because until Conflict Resolution, you never really saw people like Phyllis or Stanley taking it out on their co-workers (except Michael and Dwight).

But yeah... Michael knows that Toby's job is all about working with and helping the other people, and he always tries to make the rest of the office hate Toby so they'll come to him instead.. but every time he tries that, they just gravitate to Toby more and more.

I dunno if anyone saw the deleted scene from grief councelling. Michael gets everyone in the conference room, and Toby starts by asking if anyone's having problems eating, concentrating, etc. because of Ed Truck's death. Stanley quips about how he's having problems concentrating right now, and everyone gives a little chuckle. Toby wraps it up by saying "Okay, well sometimes things crop up unexpectedly, so if anyone needs me, I'll be where I always am." Everyone starts to get up, and Michael freaks out at Toby, and makes it clear that he's going to spend hours in that conference room with everyone 'repairing the damage'. It's things like this just make them like Toby and hate Michael even more... and when Michael sees this, it just drives him to hate Toby. : P

I hate, so much, about the things you choose to be

I agree. Plus Michael says that Toby is more like corporate and isn't part of the Dunder-Mifflin Scranton family. Plus Toby tries to stop Michael from doing certain things. Remember the Casino episode when Toby listed the million reasons they couldn't have the boy scouts actually be there.

That's what I was going to say!




And the time that Toby made the joke in Diversity Day that was deemed "double offensive" and thus got him kicked out of the meeting; and the Sexual Harassment seminar, when Michael says, "You're going to have a mutiny on your hands"; and when Toby reprimands Michael for using "faggy."

There are probably others, but I can't think of anymore at this moment!

I agree... and I LOVE the Toby/Michael dynamic. It's very David Brent, in the way that David hated anyone that took the spotlight off of/ disagreed with him

I also think Michael views Toby as Anti-Fun, which is the ultimate crime in his world.