But with the internship, i am sure that afterwards, she wouldnt want to go back to being a secretary, would she?

Once again gareth, that was just a picture of a tee shirt. And it didnt even have a body, much less roy's body. And it was obviously a girl's tee shirt.

I have decided to usurp the idea and claim it as my own. Now, my job is a lot tougher than scrantonbranch's, but I will do my darndest. I will try to make you understand why Pam shouldn't go with Jim.

1. The Roy optimist- Now, we all know that Roy and Pam have a loving relationship, and despite it's dysfunction, it works. To cite examples, we could turn to Basketball and look at the exchange between Pam and Roy about them getting in a tub together. An obvious example that they are both physically and emotionally attracted to one another. They obviously had a good time in the Pocono's, which bespeaks their attraction, but it also tells us that Pam would rather spend time with Roy than anything the resort can offer. Obviously, they didn't go to the resort planning on staying in their room, or they would have just stayed home, or gone to the four seasons or something. But when they got there, they decided that that would be more relaxing/fun than skiing. They also obviously have a very trusting relationship. Roy has shown this many, many times, be it letting Pam attend Jim's party alone, or stay late from work, till eleven at night or letting her stay at the Casino Night, after he is too tired to stay. He cares enough about her to try to get her mother to like him. They obviously enjoy the company of each other, he comes up to the office and spends some lunches with her and tries to get to know her coworkers. Also, about the graphic design course, I think he totally understands why Pam wants to do it, but I think that his response is about his fears, not his trying to keep Pam from being happy. I don't even think that there is a shred of voracity to that thought. Of course Roy wants Pam to be happy. Even a thought against that is ignorant. But I think that what Roy feels, is that he is happy where he is, and doesn't want that to change. He probably really enjoys the fact that he and Pam work at the same place. He gets to see her all the time, they work the same schedule, and he probably sees this all coming to an end if she takes that internship. Pam will obviously not work at the same place, maybe not even in the same town. So as he sees it, if she takes this course, that he would either have to move out of town or will mean the end of their relationship. I bet he knows how good she is, and knows that she will succeed, and lets be honest, if you want to make any money in graphics designs, you have to move to New York ( I have a friend who is one). So Roy obviously feels threatened by it. To have to choose between the two, wouldn't be hard (I think that he would go with Pam), but I think that it would mean that he would have to say goodbye to a lot of things that he loved and cherished in order to move to a new city that he doesn't know. I think that he would do it for Pam, but, it would mean an uncomfortable change, which Roy and Pam both have an uneasiness towards.

I think that one of the best moments that Roy ever had (that has been shown) was on Booze Cruise, when he finally realized that he had been a jerk, and set a date for the wedding. Alcohol is a strong dis-inhibitor, and in that moment, he had a moment of clarity, and his actions were pure. So we know that Roy wanted marry Pam, but something was stopping him. What could this be other than fear. Fear of the unknown, of being shackled down, of their marriage not working out? We don't know.

One option that makes sense is that the reason that he hasn't set a date is because of Jim and Pam. No doubt, Pam is always coming home and talking about the fun things that she and Jim have done today, the pranks, the jokes, the schemes, and I bet that Roy feels a little bit of an outsider. This is one area, that Pam and Roy can never share. And if I were a betting man, I would put that down as to the reason why Pam doesn't talk to Roy about a lot of stuff. He probably got fed up with all of the talk and said something that he shouldn't have about him not wanting to hear about all this garbage, and Pam walled herself off from him. The more that she feels for Jim, the more she walls herself off. Guys can sense this sort of thing. Maybe he hasn't set a date, because he has sensed that she already has one foot out the door. So in a way, that Dundee was self inflicted. Not that I am saying that she shouldn't have fun at work, or that she shouldn't have any guy friends, I am just saying that maybe some of the reasons that Roy is so seemingly insensitive comes from a place of insecurity and feeling threatened (and rightly so).

Folks, lets be candid. Roy and Pam have been together a long time and are obviously comfortable with each other. I don't know how long they have lived together, but they have been going out for going on ten years. Roy and Pam have been through a lot and have proven that they will make a good married couple. Most relationships don't make it that far, married or otherwise, so, why throw it all away for someone that you feelings for, but you don't know how you will actually do. Wouldn't Pam be kicking herself if, after breaking up with Roy, she makes a go of it with Jim and they cant make things work? She had a loving, caring relationship, and she threw it all away on a whim. It is obvious to me that Roy must have a heck of a lot of redeeming qualities, especially considering how Pam and Roy's first date went. If any woman even thinks twice about a person after that, they must have a lot up their sleeves that you don't know about , much less stick with them for ten years.

I guess most of what it comes down to, is Pam willing to throw the dice. She have a three right now (not saying that Pam and Roy are a three, I would really say that they are much more of a four or a five), does she really want to throw that away and take a chance that things could be much worse? They aren't bad now. She has a loving and caring relationship that works and she is comfortable in. Does she really want to take that shot? Is the person that she is with right now so bad that she feels the need to toss him to the trash? Would she feel comfortable with disposing of him like that? Most people in the world, given the same choices, would say that the would, but in actuality, when faced with the circumstance, choose to keep what they have. Pam has shown herself to be nothing if not unwilling to take chances.

2. The Roy Pessimist- Read all other opinions of Roy on these message boards that have not been voiced by me.

3. The Unknown- The truth is, all of this is speculation (of a fictional character). We really don't know who and what Roy is yet, because we really haven't seen much of him, and most of the parts we have seen have been shown in a most negative light. I know that the writers probably don't see things as I do and will probably dispose of the character and his motives and emotions and have probably never explored the character and his actions and the motives behind them as in-depth as I have, but hey, se la vie.

That is all that I could come up with off of the top of my head, in fast reply in about twenty minutes,(I may add more to it later), but I hope that you enjoy it and it gives you some of the insight into my opinions and why I think that Pam has a much more difficult decision on her hands than I think most of you think she does. Maybe I even converted a few of you from the "I Hate Roy Fan club" or even the "I Hate Roy_Anderson Fan Club" to the "He Might Not Be So Bad School Of Opinion"

I would also like for you all to know that this was composed while listening to Miles Davis, Kind of Blue. It is perfect writing music.

Chow.

They wouldn't have to move to new york in order for her to take that course, Jan said it would only be on the weekends

Roy_Anderson, this was excellent. You hit the nail on the head, more than once. I agree that the argument that Roy doesn't want Pam to be happy is a weak one. I think it's probably more accurate to say that he's content to work in the warehouse; what's so bad about being a receptionist? On some level, it might frighten him that she wants some kind of change in her life.
Thanks for all these great thoughts on what makes this love triangle so true-to-life. It's never so simple as "he's a complete jerk, she should leave him." I think a lot of the negative Roy opinions we often express are a by-product of our just wanting Jim and Pam to be happy together.
Well done! As for "Kind of Blue" -- in my opinion, there is no better jazz album in existence.

As good as their relationship may be, I see cracks in the armor that will only lead to divorce. I think Pam was swept off her feet in high school, and is too insecure to see that Roy doesn't deserve her. Sooner or later Pam will realize this, and then it's goodbye to Roy. Sorry, but there's always Katy.

Plus, Roy has man-boobies.

This is one of those posts I'll print out at work and "savor" at leisure. I'm just drained from all the excitement about tomorrow almost being here that I don't even have the strength to post right now!

Are you sure?

To be honest, that phrase came from watching The Office, and seeing- with my own eyes mind you- David Denman's tits and beer belly.

eat your words schrute

Anyway.....
Very good post Roy_Anderson. I've always been on the "defend Roy" side of things, partially because I like being out of the norm (one reason my favorite couple is Ryan/Kelly- LOL), and partially because we have no real reason to hate him. Sure, he's not the best guy- but who is? There are reasons behind his "bad behavior."

I'm hoping that this season, whomever Pam is with, that we get to see more of the good side of Roy. He isn't a bad person, he's just comfortable where he is. I think we should see more of the sides that made Pam and Roy stay together for 10 years. Which would be realistic, because I just can't see Pam walking away from that easily.


I also agree that a alot of Roy "bashing" just comes from the hope that Jim and Pam will be together. Painting Roy in a bad light is very easy, understanding his character is not.

Great post, Roy! I agree with everything you said. I think that Pam has a very difficult decision ahead of her and that it is more complicated than one might think in one's post Jim-Pam Kiss Delirium. The writers have said that they tried to make the outcome as real as possible in that situation, so I take that to mean that they HAVE weighed in all these factors - on both the Roy side and on the Jim side.

Given what we know about Pam, I can't see her throwing her relationship with Roy completely aside for the unknown with Jim. I do think, though, that the writers' intent has always been to end the show with Jim and Pam together. However, the big question is whether that will happen after a Pam-Roy marriage or some other long list of trials or tribulations, or if they will take a chance on trying to make the central couple getting together early in the series work for this show.

Very thought provoking stuff and I hope others read this and allow these arguments to weigh in their opinions.

I was not as into the pam/roy/jim drama as much as you guys but i really enjoy reading about what ya'll have to say. thanks. now i AM beginning to appreciate the drama more and hope to have some contributing opinions later....

excellent Roy, great read.

A few thoughts:

You make a good point about Roy's insecurity with change. But its not likely marriage will open him up to change. Instead he may say "well, that's done. Now I don't have to worry, its all gonna stay just the way I want it." No need to think further about what Pam would like to do.

Roy seems to take Pam for granted, even if her loves her. Marriage will probably make that worse, not better. Not good for a relationship.

Also in your scenario about why he doesn't like Pam "all blah, blah, blah", they've already set a bad pattern of not talking about their feelings or problems. Again, seems like a doomed marriage.

This may sound like a "comfortable" marriage to some, but for many women it would be too constraining with no room for change or growth. I think Pam would eventually feel that way. She might never divorce Roy, but she wouldn't be happy, either.

You are right that there may be more to Roy, and I'm hoping we get to see it in season 3. That's one of the great things about the show as it evolved, the charachters all got more interesting and real. So maybe Roy does open up to change, and not just by getting fit (thanks, btw, great photo!).

anyway - very good insight on the Roy we know so far

Yes, even Jenna admitted on her myspace blog that "Roy" is hotter this season. I think my hangup w/ Roy is that I compare him to Lee from BBC. Lee was all around awful and Dawn did eventually leave him for Tim.

Roy is better than Lee. In The Fire, he came out to be w/ Pam & the crew b/c "the warehouse guys can be such jackasses". So he does have a fun/sensitive side on occasion. BUT - I don't feel that he is there for Pam emotionally and hopefully, one day she will see that and leave him










For Jim

best Roy line ever.

That one still makes me shudder in disgust every time I hear it.
Although, on their trip before The Carpet episode, they didn't seem to leave their room much, so maybe there's something to that...

Roy, great post. I suppose it was a matter of time until you completed the triangle. It's hard to get a handle on Roy because he doesn't have enough scenes to work with. I would like to see some "talking head" scenes with him speaking to the camera. As far as I recall, he has had none so far.
The scene with him and Pam's mom shows his best side. I just cannot imagine him having a good rapport with her if he was a complete jerk to Pam. However there is one scene that really hurts the "Roy is just scared of losing Pam" theory.



Yes I realize that men have a tendancy to "tune out" the women in their lives from time to time, I have been guilty of it myself. Still, it's not like Pam is an annoying chatterbox like Kelly. She's smart, funny and enjoyable to be around. That line shows complacency and apathy. If he is really concerned about losing Pam he won't be fine with Jim talking to her all the time at all. It makes me wonder if his one "jealous" scene in "the alliance" is motivated by his feelings for Pam, or a sense of propriety... "how dare this guy put his hands on my woman".

I once had a boyfriend very similar to Roy. We were also engaged. To me, his and Roy's personalites are a lot alike, and like Pam, I was just there in the relationship because we had been together for so long, and I was too afraid to leave it and see the world on my own (I always thought things would get better eventually--NOT). He was very discouraging about my career choices (as Roy was with Pam regarding the graphic design class) and also very controlling. And once again, like Pam, I was too dumb to realize I was too good for him. I woke up finally when I met a very nice guy and realized what kind of man I should be with and how I should be treated, and promptly gave my fiance his ring back and told him I never wanted to marry him. I believe that Pam finally woke up when Jim told her his true feelings for her. She and him are best friends, and obviously she does not have that kind of relationship with Roy (doesn't tell him her thoughts and feelings, so not to bother him). I think Jim made her realize that she could have it so much better, she could be with someone who would truly invest his time in her and actually develop a friendship within a relationship, and she's just settling for less in the Roy relationship. That's just my two cents.

I have to add that David Denman looks goooood in that picture....

Roy, very thought provoking and made me sit back and hmmmm. But I am thinking now that instead of being an shallow, insensitive, self-centered guy he is probably a in-depth, insensitive, self-centered guy. Not sure yet.

Great Philanderer - that is the best signature ever (urine)! I laughed right out loud! You win!

That was a fantastic post. Roy is actually a good guy eventhough I have seen many posts with the oposite opinion.

Roy, you made some excellent points. And I won't argue MOST of them. While I do agree that it was just his insecurities that caused him to say no to Pam's going to the internship, I don't think that a man who was so in love with her would do that. An example? My husband has sacrificed a LOT for what I want--not what he wants, but what I want, and I have done the same. A couple in love should be willing to do that. That internship would mean a step up for her--it would be her finally living out her dream--and Roy wouldn't "let" her why? Because he's scared to lose her? Maybe--but if he loved her PURELY, he would be willing to give up his relationship for what is in HER best interest. You see what I'm saying?

I have never sided with the "Roy's an all-around jerk." I've always maintained that he does have many good sides, and he's not "bad," just bad for HER. They're just not meant to be--they just don't go well together. I think they would be great friends, and great former high-school sweethearts, but nothing more. They want totally different things, and HE is not willing to change for HER better.

Oh yeah, and the ten years thing? not a good argument, because I know of many people who were together for many years, but they were miserable the whole time. Just because they've been "together" ten years, doesn't mean they didn't take breaks, or break up during that time. We don't know for sure what they've been like for ten years. Just a thought...

This is a fabulous post Roy_Anderson. This is some compelling stuff. I've never been much of a Roy basher. I think he's actually a pretty good guy, just misunderstood. I agree with much of what you said, but I of course can't agree with all of it.
One of the arguments I made in The Pam Dichotomy is that Pam loves Roy. Even the eternal optimist in me, believes that Pam loves Roy. That's why she hasn't left him yet! I totally agree that Roy loves Pam. The only problem is that we only see this relationship through Pam's perspective. When she talks to Jim about her relationship we only see her complaining. My personal experiences back up Pam's behavior, it's very rare that people tell others how wonderful and amazing their partner is, (espcially in a long term relationship), rather we complain about anything and everything. This is just basic human behavior. It doesn't mean you love the person any less, it just means there are some things that irk you about that person. Poor Roy is only shown as treating Pam badly. Unfortunately, we haven't seen enough of Roy to be able to ascertain the how he really behaves towards Pam on a daily basis. Granted we have seen him behave in ways that are questionable. I for one, had huge issues with him manhandling her in the parking lot in Chili's at the Dundies. He could treat her like gold everyday, but there is no excuse for grabbing her like that. He also sometimes makes some sarcastic and demeaning comments towards Pam, that raise some questions on how he treats her. All that aside, these are just small snipits of a ten year relationship. We have never seen Roy and Pam together for longer than a couple of minutes. This hardly gives us enough information to make judgements. Furthermore, we have no idea how Pam treats Roy on a daily basis. Who's to say she is not taking him for granted? How can we defend her flirting with another man when she is still with Roy? We've seen several knowing glances between her and Jim. She is well aware of how Jim feels, yet she continues the friendship (maybe for her own confidence or maybe she loves him back - we just don't know for sure). The comments he makes to her might be in response to comments she makes to him. Some couples dig the occasional sarcastic jab. I know my hubby and I swap sarcastic comments all the time. It's not considered hurtful or demeaning, its just a way to laugh at ourselves.
You made the argument that he trusts her immensely (later work days, going to Jim's party alone, etc.). I agree that this is true to a certain extent. However, I think some of this trusts stems from the fact that he is underestimating the relationship between Pam and Jim. I don't think he understands just how close they are. He's not in the office everyday, so he doesn't see what we see. He trusts that its just an work place friendship. We all know it goes deeper than that. The only time we see Roy have a clue about this is in The Alliance. Other than that, he treats Jim in a very friendly manner.
I agree that Roy has issues with change. He is happy with the status quo; if its not broken, don't fix it! Roy seems to be a very practical guy. I think he's comfortable and sees no reason to shake the boat. A wedding is expensive, why is it necessary when he and Pam already share a life and a home? He is secure in the fact that she is not going anywhere. However, I must disagree with your assumption that Roy doesn't support Pam's graphic design ambitions because of his refusal to change. I think this is a control issue. Roy does have a very powerful and sometimes overbearing personality. He seems to have some macho undertones in how he conducts himself. We see this in Basketball and The Alliance, he's not one to be pushed around. I think Pam sprung this whole graphic design internship on him without warning. He probably felt like she made a big decision without him and that made him lash out. He didn't like being left out of the loop. So he compensated by controlling the situation.
I agree that Roy had a wake up moment on the Booze Cruise, even if it was alcohol induced. Roy has as far as we know continued to plan to marry Pam on June 10. He did not changed his mind or call it off after he sobered up. I think this speaks volumes for how much he wants to make Pam happy. He's not big on the wedding issue, but he does want to keep her happy. I can't totally agree with your synopsis that alcohol is a strong dis-inhibitor. True, it does knock down our inhibitions, but that's not always a good thing. People do and say some stupid things they don't mean when they've had a few! I'm a little leary of Roy's alcohol induced light bulb moment. I just hope his fear of change won't lead to a broken hearted Pam.
I agree that Pam and Roy are comfortable with each other. They have had an extremely long run as a couple. But, I have to jump in and agree with receptionist, just because they've been together for 10 years doesn't mean they're totally happy! Sometimes people just stay together out of habit, or they are just to scared to find something better. Both Pam and Roy have issues with change and the unknown. Two people with the same insecurities are bound to stay together longer than they probably should. You're absolutely right that Pam is not one to throw the dice on something that is not a sure thing. She is not willing to leave or hurt Roy for something thay may not pan out.
I'm positive the writers portray Roy with a certain amount of negativity to create sympathy for Pam and to spotlight Jim in a postive light. It's a classic storyline ploy. I don't think so many of us would be rooting for JAM if Roy was shown as a fantastic and perfect man for Pam. Jim would lose his status as the sweet and noble guy in Pam's life. I hope we get to know Roy a little better in season 3. He is getting a raw deal so far! I was never part of the I Hate Roy Fan Club, but I'm also a card carrying member of the I Love Jim Fan Club. I think Jim is a great match for Pam. But I also understand that Roy may be her soul mate. We'll just have to wait and see.

As for the usurping an idea and making it your own; imitation is the best form of flattery!

Again, great job on this post - it was a fascinating read!

Even though I am generally a Roy basher, I agree he does have some redeeming qualities. He did say "I love you" to Pam in front of everyone on the Booze Cruise. I just don't think he is the best man for Pam. Roy is happy with the relationship because it's what HE wants. The may have a physical and emotional attachment, but not an intellectual one. Why should you marry a man you can't share your "bah bah bah" with? Or your thoughts and feelings? Although physical attraction is a great thing, that's not what usually attracts women first. Get the intellectual, emotional, spiritual attraction going and she will become physically attracted. This is why all the women swoon over Jim. Let's face it - in the looks department, ROY RULES.

I also had huge issues with him grabbing her in the parking lot at Chili's during "The Dundies" episode. If he treats her like that in front of Darryl, how does he treat her when they are alone? I dated 2 guys like that who turned out to be abusive. I wanted her to dump him then and there, but after 10 years, many women feel trapped in the relationship.

Roy's just a big kid with a job. Lots of fun, but not for artsy fartsy Pam.

There is one angle in our examination of Roy that has not been covered yet. Angela crushes on him a bit, according to the webisodes. This intrigues me to no end. Roy has that ruggedly handsome thing going on so the attraction could be merely physical, but If she likes him only for his looks than what is her attraction to Dwight. She definately sees something in him. This Rangela thing certianly puts a new spin on her constant sniping at Pam.



Thank you. I couldn't have done it without my keds. There are so many wonderfully absurd Dwightisms to choose from but that one stood out above the crowd to me.

Her attraction to Dwight is partly because he is such a stickler to the rules. And after sex he takes her to church. Like I said, a woman who is attracted to a man in an intellectual, spiritual, emotional way becomes physically attracted to him as well. And his cookies.

As for being attracted to Roy, well, she's not blind. Plus he said he would do her. (plus, why would Roy say that in front of Pam and everyone??? Pam was NOT happy)

And what about the time Kelly kissed Dwight? Weird.

I'm too tired to read all these posts after all the reading I've done on this board tonight, but I just wanted to say how much I love this topic and the analying going on. This is a love triangle worth analyzing, and although I've honestly never given that much thought to Roy, it's interesting to see everyone discussing his character in depth. Maybe it'll give me a new view on Roy. Gonna return and read these posts later!

Roy_Anderson good job and time well spent. I have never been out against Roy, because if Pam is with him and we like Pam there must be something there. I have had a hard time with wanting her to be with Jim when it means that she would be leaving a ten year relationship.

There were a couple of things I didn't agree with in your argument.
You mentioned that after a first date like they had she continued to go out with him, so there really must be something great about him. He was a football player and she was "nerdy", it is not surprising at all that she went out with him again. Actually the fact that he took her to a hockey game, brought his brother along and thought that it was okay gives us a little deeper look into his psyche.

The other point I disagree withis Roy making an effort to get to know her co-workers. There is the odd occasion, like the fire(but even that was motivated by him wanting to get away from the warehouse guys), but most often he brings Darryl along and hangs out with him. This happens at the Christmas Party, The Dundies, when he comes to have lunch in the office. He also "abandons" her quite often when she is out with her co-workers. When he skips out of Jim's party to go out with Darryl, or leaves her at the Dundies, and again when he leaves her at Casino night. When he leaves her it has less to do with trusting her, and more to do with pleasing Roy. In these situations he is being selfish and not taking her feelings into consideration, it appears he takes her for granted.

I have to say I love Angela and Dwight together, but I am hoping for a Roy and Angela date. Just one, I think it would be hilarious.

Roy- I was throughly impressed with your post. The time and dare I say it the sensivity was so great. not only did it provoke thought it actually does make you see a side to roy that you would just normally push aside for being a male behavoir that could be classified close to as a pig.
I'm not a huge fan of the pam and roy relationship only because it seems to be dysfunctional. But underneath all of it I really believe that roy does love pam with all his heart and pam does really love roy and would want to be with him if only she could add clauses like, if you were and only when.
I hope you continue this thread. But if you try to do a support karen thread you wont change my mind, the woman is a troll

Wow roy!! great post!! I am still a JAM supporter, bu after reading this, I don't think of Roy in such a horrible light. He and Pam do work well together, and the world won't come to an end if they stay together.

Oh, and it's c'est la vie, not se la vie. Not that I really care.