As hard as this is for me, considering I don't even really like the woman, I'd like to start a discussion about Karen and her psyche, motives, and schema. We are going to see her around for a while, according to the next epi's promos, so I figured we might as well begin to discuss her actions and what's behind them, like we have done for Jim, Pam, and Angela (I don't think we have these for any other characters, do we?). I think this may help those like myself, who really don't like her, but maybe if we understood her more, we might not hate her AS MUCH (because, really, can we LIKE anyone who is a threat to Pam? Didn't think so).

So this is my theory on the bits and pieces we've seen of Karen.

1) At first, she didn't like Jim. She thought he was odd. But seeing how he was an ally when it came to Andy, she eventually warmed up to him, and now thinks that his little oddities are cute. Don't we all?

2) Now that she openly admits to herself, and even the camera, that she's "into" him, she is willing to take risks to be around him. Risks like moving to Scranton. But I think this is not merely an immature action based on a possibly fleeting crush. Karen strikes me as an all-business woman. When the guys are drinking because they can get away with it, Karen is actually working. When she takes a break to play that game with the others in the office, she takes it seriously. So I think she's avoided a romantic relationship for a while, and now she meets Jim. And then the branch closes, and there's a possibility of her never seeing him again. For her, she feels like, "It's now or never!" so she's gonna go for it. I think she may be thinking, "It'd be hard to get a new job, and I've worked hard to come this far in this company so I'd like to stay with them. But if they close this branch and they offer me a job elsewhere, it'd be nice to be with Jim, since I'm having these feelings for him." Not in those words, but that's the basic jist, I think.

What do you guys think?

I kind of like Karen. I think if she wasn't indroduced as "The girl taying to get Jim" or something more people would like her.

I want to know how strong she is. My friend is convinsed there will be a slap fight over Jim.

Karen in ways really reminds me of Jim at times, given the limited time that she has been on this season. For example when Jim and Andy were drinking reminded me a lot of the Dundies when Pam was drinking. Karen likes Jim and knew that he had no way to get home, except for his bike (Jim knew Roy had left Pam) so she refrained from drinking and made sure that he was safe, showing up after his fall.

There isn't a lot to go off of and Karen doesn't bug me really. However, Jim and Pam must be together, that is the only way!

Point two reminds me of Jim, the now or never go for it deal... maybe they're more alike then I thought...

Considering she's going to Scranton to be closer to Jim, this is going to end, and its going to end badly hehe. Unless Jim disses Pam as she did to him TWICE. I don't like what Pam has become being on her own this season, but I also don't like how she messed with Jim. But I know that Jim and Pam would be great together if they got their S together. Karen does not seem compatible with Jim. She is rather snooty, not as fun loving as Jim and Pam are. So there's mah 2 centz.

Karen is HOTTT~ with three T's and a tilde.

But I still like Pam more.

I didn't get that she disliked him, in fact (without rewatching GWH) I think she said he was "nice enough". But true that she thought there was something odd about him at first.



Not only is she all-business, but I think her feigned participation in the drinking game shows that she has a sneaky side that might become more obvious when she finds out about Pam.

I'm sure a lot of people on this board would like that . . .

There is something odd about him... he did know Dwight after all...


Yeah... that'll be interesting... considering how Pam reacted to Katy, it should be really nail-biting and cringe-worthy watching her act around Karen.



-CD-

i so don't want to see a slap fight over jim! this isn't a soap opera!

I don't think that Karen is all buisness, I think that she wasn't drinking because she didn't see the point in getting drunk if she couldn't drive home. She spent a whole day looking for a bag of chips. She swaps chairs with Jim and plays call of duty like nobody's buisness.

Karen seem like the kind of girl who doesn't spend a lot of time in relationships because she can't find the right kind of guy. Jim is the right kind of guy.

I like karen because she has her doubts about herself from time to time, but is still confident. She knows how to stand up for herself and will let people know what is going on and exactly how she is feeling.

Furthermore, I think that she has a feeling that something else has been going on with Jim and so she is trying to bide her time.

She is the ideal rebound girl because she is funny, confident, smart and nice, not to mention exotic looking (i think her dad was a GI). She is good for Jim's self esteem and she won't turn him down once, let alone twice.

I don't think that it's immature for Karen to take the job in Scranton. As Pam said, finding a new job is hard. There's no guarantee that a new one would be better, anyway. If she's good at what she does, and she's only up-rooting herself, then why not take the transfer? I think that Jim's being there is just a bonus. Her talking head said that she was glad that he said that, not that she wouldn't've taken the job anyway.

I agree. She was planning on going whether or not Jim was heading back to pennsylvania, however, she was dissapointed when Jim said that she should go to new york instead. IT was a bonus when he suggested that he might like to have her there. It didn't make the decision for her.

If Pam was jealous with Katy, I think this will be even worse because not only will she have to watch it day in and day out but she seems to be a more LEGIT threat as well.

actually, JIM spent the whole day looking. She gave up, but he kept going. She went along with it for a while, but in the end... she went back to work and Jim continued to pursue it.

and as far as I remember, she didn't swap chairs with him, since he wouldn't leave his chair.

and her playing call of duty... that's just another way in which she is "all business." That term is not just talking about her work--what she does for a living. It's talking about a way of life. Whatever is set before her, she will do her best, and she will take it seriously, if she feels it warrants such seriousness. And it just seems that a woman like her would at least have a prospect. So why doesn't she? Because until now, it hasn't been convenient to pursue a relationship with a man. She didn't like the guys at her work, so it wasn't convenient--but now it is.

but then again, this is all just my opinion, so... yeah.

I disagree, the argument over the chair started because according to Jim, "No I didn't steal your chair, I took back the chair you stole from me, but I didn't take your chair."

I think that smart confident women are intimidating and Jim is a good match because he isn't "afraid of her". She is comfortable with him and he seems to feel generally the same way. The two of them are more alike than Jim and Pam. Her seriousness suggests that she is ready for a kind of commitment than Pam wasn't and isn't ready for because of her relationship with Roy, which while over, is still probably in her head all of the time.

So what if it is convenient? You are telling me that if you were single and Jim walked into your office you wouldn't jump that? Because i certainly would. Jim is the silver lining of her branch being shut down.

It will be JAM at the end, but it is going to take a Karen to get Jim and Pam to realize how and why they need each other. It is going to take her spirit, her drive and her heart. I know its cheesy, but I think its true.

Funny you said that because I was thinking earlier that Karen's don't come along very often..especially ones that are "into" you.

I just don't like her.
She just rubs me the wrong way (thats what she said).
She just seems like the biatchy, up tight, always spreading rumors and drama type.
She could hook up with ROy... that would be fine.

do you want anything fun to happen on this show? ever?
besides, it doesnt have to be a soap opera style slapfight, it could be a major league baseball style slapfight.

my mlb-style defeats your monkey-style

Because she really sucks. Shes city trash and shes not right for Jim. Roy is a hottie, and I hope Pam doesnt put up with this Karen crap a day longer. Crush Jim and break his heart again. He should of never even considered dating this Urban Floozy

Whoa. Don't care if you don't like Karen (I think she's great, btw, and hope she stays on the show throughout at least the season finale). But advocating another broken heart for Jim? Are you serious? If so, shame on you! The man's been through enough, leave him alone!

And Kim's no floozy. And why did you say "Urban"? Did you want to say something else but were afraid to?

Karen doesn't bother me, only thing that bothers me is she doesn't get enough air time. I'm a fan of Jim leaving Karen so I can step in, but unfortunetly i'm not on the show. dinka flicka

Karen bothers people because of their obsession with the Jim and Pam relationship.

Karen doesn't bother me. I'm still surprised at how much I like her! It's just painful watching Jim try to start something with her when I know that isn't what he really wants. I was actually heartened by what I saw in The Convict. Jim still loves Pam, respects Karen and was trying to protect both of them (as well as himself), while still having his unique brand of fun with Pam in the process. We'll see where these brilliant writers and actors (including the awesome Rashida Jones) take this.

PS - I'm all about diversity of opinion, but really. City Trash? C'mon.

I don't really like her plus she kinda freaks me out to put it quite frankly! LOL

I DO like she is on the show though since it adds another angle for the writers which will keep the show around longer.

I don't really hate Karen, but there can't really be a relationship. In The Convict, when Karen wanted to get in on the prank on Andy, into Jim's world, she couldn't because Jim's world is Jim and Pam's world, and if he can't let her into his world, there can't be a long lasting relationship

my roomate and i debate this a lot. he thinks that Karen is much better looking than Pam. I told him he is nuts. but anyway back to the topic. I think that you could say that she is all business. but she does know how to chill out a little bit. she needs to learn to get along better with everyone in scranton (phyllis perfume, creed and the paperclips) or else jim will be turned off. but i think that that he will ultimately realize that pam is what will make him happy. and that's what its all about

Karen...I have mixed opinions about her. I don't really have a problem with her as a person. She has a cute personality, she's pretty, she's nice and funny. But she just doesn't really fit in. Jim seems a little resistant to let her into the world he was comfortable with before everything spiraled out of control. So it may be on Jim's part, but it seems like Jim has this wall with her and it allows for some awkwardness.

Maybe she's making herself too comfortable into the Scranton branch. She kinda dove right in and made herself at home, and I think thats hard for Jim and Pam. She is very difficult to disect.

that is so not why she bothers me.

I'm really on a hate-Karen kick today. For some reason I get the feeling that she's really not a very nice person deep down. That she only appears nice to get what she wants from people.

Example, on her FIRST day, she offends Phyllis by complaining about the "smell" - something which Stanley has never commented on in all the years he's sat by her.

Then, when she realizes that she's offended her, she makes a contrived comment about Bob Vance later on, which makes Phyllis smile. Job done, Karen thinks to herself, now Phyllis likes her. It's all very unnatural the way she really tries to be part of the office

[quote name='sammy57' date='Dec 1 2006, 07:57 AM' post='1246282']
Karen doesn't bother me. I'm still surprised at how much I like her! It's just painful watching Jim try to start something with her when I know that isn't what he really wants. I was actually heartened by what I saw in The Convict. Jim still loves Pam, respects Karen and was trying to protect both of them (as well as himself), while still having his unique brand of fun with Pam in the process. We'll see where these brilliant writers and actors (including the awesome Rashida Jones) take this.

PS - I'm all about diversity of opinion, but really. City Trash? C'mon.
[/quote

Thanks for reading my mind. That's exactly what I wanted to post but I was too lazy to type it.

I'm not a big fan of Rashida Jone's character Karen. But at the same time, she doesn't really bother me because she looks a lot like my cousin. Honestly, no joke. And the thought of my cousin being with a nice guy like Jim makes the family happy.

Anyway, back to the show...

One thing I noticed during the Merger episode was that when Jim suggested to Karen to leave a more lively recording and asking her if she felt "good" about it, Karen deleted it as soon as Jim left, and changed it back to the way she wanted it. First thing, I thought of was... Pam wouldn't do that, in fact, she would've kept it.

*Jim and Pam is just like peanut butter and jelly - they go good together all the time.

*While Jim and Karen is like peanut butter and banana - they go good together only from time to time, and some may not even like it together as a sandwhich.

I don't think so. Jim would never ask Pam to leave a silly recording on her voicemail, and Pam wouldn't keep it on anyway. She is the receptionist of Dunder-Mifflin. Michael almost certainly leaves her voicemails when she is not at her desk. It wouldn't look good for Pam to come as unprofessional to anyone other than Jim. Pam and Karen would have reacted the same way: humor Jim, and then turn around and do the professional thing.

Hi all, de-lurking as of today!

We don't really know that much about Karen. I think the writers are letting her 'type' and her presence speak for itself, right now. She is strong and forward....with a husky voice to match. So opposite of Pam's gentleness and vulnerability.

I don't think Karen is a bad person. Just wonder how Jim could or would select her as a new love-of-his-life after he pined for someone for three years who seems Karen's direct opposite.

Stranger things have happened though. Should be interesting!

hey RainbowBanjo! Not sure if I am qualified to say "welcome to the boards" as I de-lurked as of yesterday..



I completely agree here. I am somewhat ambivalent towards Karen right now, I don't feel like we've seen enough of her to make any judgements about her. yet. I think she has potential to be a likeable character, and more than just a ploy to keep Jim and Pam apart. I have faith that the writers will do her justice - I am a Jam shipper all the way but I really WANT to like karen and don't want to see her as just a plot device to keep the Pam/Jim angst going. That would be bo-ring and completely unoriginal, and I think The Office is above that.



I felt sort of compelled to add that it doesn't surprise me that much that Karen and Pam are so different. Just to draw on my own personal experiences here - in the small number of relationships that I've had, after they ended the following person that I dated or had a crush on tended to be VERY different from my previous relationship. Part of it may have been not wanting to be reminded of that person, or attributing something that person did to the entire group of people who have that personality. Not the most mature thing to do, but I don't think I really did it consciously (in my defense!).

What I love so much about The Office is how it makes me so conflicted!! I very much want to see Jim and Pam finally be together, but I also want the show to stick to reality (which it is SO great at doing), and in reality, would a Jim and Pam situation work out in the end? The romantic in me sure as heck hopes so! But I am not sure. I am also conflicted between wanting to like Karen and if Jim is happy with her then have it work out between them, but also thinking of how much I want Karen to GO AWAY because .. well I want Jim and Pam together!!!

I have been LOVING reading these boards the past few months! You guys are just lovely :-)

-melissa

Karen is starting to bother me. I'm starting to think that she's being too dumb about the whole situation. I wonder if she's aware, but in denial about Jim and Pam. (As they say, "love is blind.") She's a smart woman, so she's got to be more aware of them than she showed last night. And she forgave Jim too easily. It made me think a little less of her.

I'm starting to think that when she gets hurt after she and Jim break up, she's going to deserve some of it because she's not looking at the situation for what is really is. Especially after Phyllis told her Jim practically worshipped Pam, and then having Jim lie about it, and then just say it was a crush. If it was just a crush, he wouldn't have lied about it to her.

Fool me once, shame on you. But fool me twice, shame on me. . . C'mon Karen, think!

I suppose having an opinion on Karen all depends on how objective you're willing to be. Looking at her objectively, she's very attractive, smart, sexy and displays genuine affection for Jim. Looking at Pam objectively, she's not as attractive as Karen and, despite having strong feelings for Jim bordering on love, did not have the courage to face up to her true feelings when confronted by Jim's confession then turned around and broke her fiance's heart by calling off the wedding. She is no saint, that's for sure.

No way is Karen more attractive than Pam - NO WAY !!!

I'm failing to make the connection .... I have blue eyes and blonde hair, so who am I supposed to go for?

All this "looks" talk doesn't have much to do with Karen's charcter. She's become a little too needy, a little more needy than I ever imagined she could be. She seems so confident, but why is she so desperately trying to make it work with Jim? They've only been dating one month and already he's afraid she's moving too close to him and finding out he lied to her about feelings he had for another woman. Aren't all of these red flags? It's not like they've been together for a while, that way I might be able to understand her being in love with Jim. But after one month, that's highly unlikely. So why is she still with Jim? Is she really as confident as she appears to be? I don't think so.

Personality plays a lot into attraction. For example, I find Pam Beasley to be more attractive then Jenna Fischer.

Karen seems a bit harsh and guarded. To me that detracts from her physical appearance.

Now that is subjective. There's no objectivity on which of the two is more attractive. Me, I'm blonde and green-eyed so I go for women of darker complexion. As such, I find Rashida Jones to be much more attractive. Jenna Fischer looks too plain for me most of the time although she has the better body of the two, they do a good job of hiding Jones' larger-through-the-middle shape. I know this is all strictly superficial but physical attraction knows no deeper meaning.

Regardless, Melora Hardin has them all beat every day of the week and twice on Sundays. She is hot, Hot, HOT!!!

Karen ? why I feel so sorry for her:
*please don?t bash me, these are only my opinions

1) It SUCKS to be a new person in an office where everyone else knows each other & looks at you like an interloper.
Phyllis & the perfume - rewatch it - Karen wasn't being purposefully offensive, Bob Vance's perfume stunk & she didn't know what it was. Who HASN'T said something like this? Stanly quote: "I don't know who these new people think they are". I would feel awful.
Angela in the xmas party planning meeting - Karen had no idea about Angela?s personality & had every idea shot down in a mean way. Pam - who has been admittedly "cold to Karen" after the initial positive interchange ("cute sweater" or whatever). How confusing is that to someone that isn?t in on the big JAM secret?
I think this girl isn't quite "all business" as much as she feels alienated from her new office. We don?t know what it was like in her old office, but there were obviously other females that were close to her age & people that she might?ve had more common interests.
2) The ?into Jim? statements & moving to Scranton.
I refuse to believe that Karen moved to Scranton just because of her job. I don?t believe that Jim & Pam are the only people in the entire world that communicate without words & he gave her some subtle something that told her to follow. Maybe he didn?t come right out & say ?let?s go to Scranton & we?ll be together forever? but he gave her something somewhere that made her think they had a legitimate future. Regardless of Jim?s emotional confusion or whatever timelines that we think we?ve established on these boards, he encouraged her at some point. She?s ?into him?, but doesn?t strike me as the type that would follow him without a real good reason.
3) The apartment fight
Karen wouldn?t talk because she was hurt, confused & angry. No matter what, she followed Jim to Scranton & he?s flipping out because she
might move into an apartment 2 blocks away after living in a motel for over a month. This type of fight would make anyone in a
relationship very very insecure & very very hurt.
4) Pam/Jim downplaying Pam/Rebound
?enuff said.
Again, I know how offended people get on these boards when someone actually feels sorry for Karen in this situation, but I do. I identify with her more than any other character on this show & can personally tell you that just because a person comes off as all business or quiet or bit*hy or whatever a person calls it, doesn?t mean that?s really how they are ? people respond to their environments. The writers are brilliant.

Allow me to 'splain, then. I have enough light complexion charachteristics for two people and I see enough of it in the mirror and would therefore not prefer to see that in a potential couterpart. This mindset/preference is not at all unusual.

As for preceived "needyness", matters of the heart defy logic and explanation so I, for one, don't look for it where none is likely to be found, nor do I look any deeper and try to manufacture motives when lack of communication and understanding abounds making motive-discovery strictly conjecture.

See, did he really lie, or is he getting over Pam and realising it was an office crush?

After Pam turned Jim down, I re-watched a lot of the previous interactions, and I didn't pick up on half as much interest from Pam as from Jim. Sure, playful, a little flirty, but she treated him like a little boy.

Now he's gone away, grown up a bit, seen there are other fun women with more tricks up their sleeves. Women who don't have to be pushed to expand their own horizons. Pam hums high notes to make Dwight think he was hearing things; Karen crank-calls a store in Montreal and asked for Herr's chips, in French.

Pam may have gotten her own flat and started taking some art classes, but she's still in Scranton and still frumpy and very small-town. (I get that vibe from clips of interviews with the actress as well. Someone pls give her a tip about push-up bras if she insists on showing cleavage.) Pam as a character is someone I'd hire pronto as an office admin and would absolutely adore and bonus the heck out of, but not someone w/whom I'd voluntarily spend non-work time.

What evidence is there that Jim isn't really getting over Pam? Don't a lot of ppl go through mad crushes that seem like love to them at the time, then go on to look back on themselves in that stage with a bit of wistful indulgence?





Ditto you there. Melatonin-deficiency should not be passed on in pure form ...


And - personality detracting from looks is subjective as well. I find Pam naive and really pretty boring. You know the old "snowed in at O'Hare" litmus test? Well, I'd like Pam to be the one back in the office keeping things running and keeping me in the loop when I'm snowed in at O'Hare.

There's a lot to that where initial attraction is concerned. "Beauty is only skin deep" is a cliche and cliches are cliches because they are rooted in truth. After the initial infatuation wears off, you're strictly left with the person underneath and that's where a true and lasting connection is found if there's a compatibility. But initial attraction plays a huge role in determining whether or not you will get to know a person enough to be able to tell whether that lasting connection is there or not. Unfortunately, this also means that there may be someone out there who is perfect for you but you'll never know because that initial attraction simply isn't there. This is all strictly academic and I digress, my point is that Jan Levinson is hotter than Georgia asphalt!

Wow. This is a really interesting theory, especially the looking back with wistful indulgence part (i know i've done that with crushes).... hum... i love this show.

now i'm going to hide & pray for your life when the true blue jammers get ahold of this

First off, I do have to admire how they're developing Karen's character. In these TV love triangles, the "other women" or even "other man" are either so wonderful you can't believe they're real or so horrible you really don't understand why the main character is with them (Roy was definitely on the "horrible" side"). I was worried they were going to make Karen too wonderful, but they've done a good job of showing she's far from perfect.

I didn't think she was dumb about the situation until the end of the coffee shop scene. She been smitten with him, but I'm sure under that there's been some doubt. The look on her face after Phyllis's comment was a "I knew something was up" kind of look. She of course doesn't want to believe Jim's hung up on Pam, but at the same time it probably answered a lot of questions. Since she has a more aggresive personality, she immediately confronts him about it, rather than waiting it out and watching for clues that he's still into Pam, or that Pam's into him (though she will sure be more sensitive to Jim and Pam's interactions now).

But the way she bought the crush story, it sure left me baffled. 10 seconds before that Jim told her he had never had a thing for Pam. Then he gives her the lets call it "light" version of the story, which doesn't check out with what Phyllis said at all. I certainly know liking someone can seriously compromise your judgment, but still, she should have taken what Jim said with a grain of salt.

why do I get the sense that Karen isn't recieving the same level of sympathy that Pam did when she was pretty much a doormat for Roy? People are angry at Karen for not seeing clearly when it comes to Jim but Pam suffered that to a much greater degree with Roy.

I really like Karen and she doesn't come off as needy to me at all... just a woman who's infatuated with a guy.

Posted this over on the Jim Paradox, but I think it's better off here!! Great thread!

Must say, "Travelling Salesman" stands as my favorite Season 3 episode so far. Across the board, it was just SO GOOD! Every line, everyone look, every momentThis episode was so chock-full of Office goodness, I almost forgot that it was, in a lot of ways, a JAM downer. WOW. So many great things about this episode, and I wish I had time to just vent them all, but since I don't have time now, I'll just say one thing about the scene in the coffee shop with Jim and Karen, which of course stemmed from Phyllis' comments to Karen.

Karen is a smart girl. And I think she's pretty sharp. She's also really into her boyfriend, who has had a hard time really committing to her and meeting her halfway. So before Phyllis says anything about Jim's past with Pam, Karen already has some small sirens going off in the back of her head. She KNOWS, if she has half a brain, that there are some things that just don't add up when it comes to Jim's attachment (or lack thereof) to her and their relationship. Nonetheless, when Phyllis' casually mentions that Jim was hung up on Pam for so long, I'm sure it hits Karen like a ton of bricks. Poor thing!! Initially, she feels shock, then she feels hurt, then I'm sure things are beginning to add up a bit...... Also, Karen has no reason to doubt or question Phyllis' words. Phyllis is a sweet, sincere, and honest (probably TOO honest here!) person.

I admire Karen a lot for confronting Jim right away. It shows that she really cares about Jim and their relationship, and she has a healthy sense of self. And I don't think that Jim lied to her about what happened with Pam, but I think he definitely DOWN-PLAYED the whole thing, which is probably just as damaging as lying. And because Karen really cares about Jim, she chooses to believe him mostly because she WANTS to believe him. She wants to believe that Jim's feelings for Pam were fleeting and inconsequential so that she can salvage hope for her own relationship with him. Can we blame her? NO.

But at the end of the day, Phyllis' words will echo and linger for Karen and she won't be able to shake them. She will really begin to doubt herself, Jim, their relationship, and Pam.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the beginning of the end for Jim and Karen.

You do have a point, there is not really any "hard" evidence that Jim isn't getting over Pam. Of course, if we looked at Pam from Jim's point of view in the last few episodes, he really has no reason to believe she sees him as anything more than a friend, but the audience knows this certianly isn't the case.

The only evidence I can offer is the coffee shop scene in this last episode. He initially tried to deny he ever had a thing for Pam, adding in that little "Why, did she (pam) say something?" then tells her the version of the story that left out a few key details, like, oh I don't know, that Pam was engaged the entire time he had know her? If he's over it and if he truely believes it was just a crush that he misinterpreted for something more, then what's there to hide? Not that he should have detailed the events of Casino Night or anything, but he could have said, "It was an office crush, it was a long time ago, I'm over it." He's clearly still very guarded about his feelings for Pam, whether they're old feelings or current ones.