Very true I could write an article on the subject

Sharpie you make me laugh!!!!

Oh and RC- it really said that?? WOW that is taking it to the extreme!

yeah VB... one day I might need them for something, But at the moment there are a lot better things to do.

Yep it said that. She's pretty much an ultra-feminist.

We have another babysitter, a high school girl. One morning I go into my office and find a 5 page letter in my printer. It's a ridiculously sappy love letter to a boy! Evidently the babysitter wrote in on our computer and hit the 'print' key, unaware that the current printer was the one in my office. My office is in another part of the house and is locked. My kids complained that instead of playing games with them, she was looking for the printer!

I always found intelligence and a great sense of humor far more important.


She probably was mortified . . .

You're making me feel shallow Mixed! Women had to meet the 'minimum look requirement' for me to be interested in them (being whorishly dressed was an immediate disqualification). After that, it was all personality.

Did you give her the printout?

Oh my goodness....I don't know if I've ever felt so bad for someone. That will no doubt go down as the most humiliating experience of her life.

BTW, where do you find all of these said babysitters? We only know three teenage girls through church, and they're all way too busy to babysit. Once every six months or so we can wrangle a grandparent into babysitting, but that's it.

We have a list of about 9 sitters.

The college age sitters all came from the local universities online job board. The high school ones were referals from people in the 'twins club' my wife belongs to. We have 2 that live on our block. My wife noticed knocked on thier door and asked if they babysat.

They only had to be moderately attractive. Personality made up the rest. Ironically, I ended up marrying the best looking guy I ever dated, and I think he's pretty good looking by anyone's standards. Lucky me.

So you did have a minimum look requirement!!!!

Congrats on snagging the best looking guy you dated!! Nice.

I never liked women that looked like models (tall and really skinny). I find Pam Beesly to be incredibly beautiful (shocking!), so any women with that 'look' easily met my minimum look requirement.

I also snagged the BEST guy I dated.

While I suppose you can say that most women don't date for looks (alone), I know that I certainly won't date someone I'm not at least moderately attracted to. Actually, I would say that I definitley need to be attracted to them.

But then agan..if you meet them and they charm your socks off, are really funny, and have an all-around great personality...well...great, but usually this doesn't happen unless you are at least a little attracted to them.

I love that we are all attracted to different types of people. I guess the world wouldn't work as well if we weren't.

Well, to be honest I have a feeling it isn't going well. During the game they pretty much stayed to themselves. I didn't see any of that early relationship lovey dovey stuff which is pretty common. My sixth sense is telling me to just wait for it to end and if it's not over in a month I'll have my Casino Night.

Her boyfriend lives in the dorms on campus and we both live at home. We came in separate cars and met at the game.



I, like RC, have a minimum looks requirement. The thing about my standards is that I have to be attracted to someone to make it work. And, like RC again, I find cute girls much more attractive than hot girls for a number of reasons.

^^ For your sake I hope it's over soon so you don't have to wait a month to have your CN. VB is right though, the longer you wait the more likely she will stay in that relationship. But some women for reasons I don't get are attracted to jerks.

I don't really have any requirements as far as looks. I'm more attracted to the personality first than anything. I've never said this but my ex used to be legally blind. It didn't bother me. He was a talented musican and thats what drew me to him.

I dont know about the rest of the men here, but what really turns me off is drama. I know beautiful women and i would like to think i have a shot, but im not going to take it because i dont want the drama.

I think my problem is that in the household i was raised in, there was really no drama (parents together, love eachother, and we also are kind of isolated from the rest of our family by distance, so their drama couldnt affect us) so i really dont know how to cope. I dont have the mechanisms or strategies. So when a gf or whatever comes to me and tells me what is going on and asks me what to do, my answer is to get away from it (which is probably the right answer) but they dont like that answer or wont consider it.

Its weird though, it seems all the girls i am attracted to (with one or two acceptions) seem to all have some deep seated psychological issues. Whether it is abuse or other things, they all seem normal on the outside and then on the inside, they are nutty. Almost like peanut m and m's. Or almond ones, because peanuts arent actually nuts.

I think another problem is i have a very low bullshiite tolerance level and all the girls my age seem to be really into playing games and that to me is bullshiite, and i dont put up with it.

I can't stand the BS. Though most of the ladies I know want to solve their problem and have the personal will to have already tried on their own or are doing it. I can't stand the people who ask you to solve it for them.

Roy you sound like my brit. He was sorta rasied the same way, and has a low tolerance level but yet he's always drawn to messed up women and I'm one of em.

^^^You aren't the only one RA. I am very turned off by drama, as are most guys. I don't mind if a person is forced into drama but if they create it I'm gone. I, like you, grew up in a pretty normal house and drama wasn't all that prevelent.

And you are right, it seems like girls our age breed drama.

I would like a description of drama please.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drama

^^

Okay question for the guys on here. Do you like or are attracted to aggressive women? why if so? Do you think aggressive women carry more drama?

^^

To add to this question. Do you like it when women ask you out, or would you prefer to do that yourself? Is it true that if a guy likes a girl enough, they will do the asking?

Nice sharp. I hope the guys give us the real truth. and a he's just not that into you type of answer.

Well, the last aggressive gal I was into turned out to be a nut-bag. So I'm not sure. I think there is a line - I would certainly let a girl ask me out, as I'm often too shy to do the asking. But if she demonstrates signs of bipolar disorder, I'll run for the door.

That's kind of vague...

Well, the last relationship I was in, the girl was kind of aggressive. I was whipped, I'll admit it. She made me quit smoking, but I developed a way to hide it from her by using a jacket to smoke in, and tons of those Listerine strips. She could still smell it on me sometimes, but I just said I was with a friend/coworker who was smoking. Ahh, the things you'll do for love. (or the other thing) It didn't work out in the end obviously, but it wasn't because she was too demanding.

I suppose it all depends on how hot she is.

I really dont have a problem with aggressive chicks. Maybe that is my problem. Maybe im attracted to aggressive chicks and those are all the screwed up ones. The women that ive been in relationships and are screwed up are not usually timid chicks.

And as for the girl asking the guy out thing, i have said it before, and i will say it again. Chicks sit back and wonder why a guy isnt asking them out.You send him all kind of 'signals'. Guys dont know what your 'signals' are, and dont get it. And unless the guy is very ballsy, which usually doesnt happen unless you dont know the guy or he is kind of an a$$hole, he is going to be timid. Once you are in the friends category, he isnt going to rock the boat unless he is very sure. If you want to move it to the next level from there, and you think he may be interested, try to hang out with only the two of you. Without the group. You women like to travel in packs, and that only makes our job harder. It is like the lion trying to pick off one of the gazel out of the herd. Makes our job harder. So get them alone and see where it leads. Once youve been out for a few times just the two of you, he will probably get the hint.

Either that, or get drunk, make out with him, and see how he reacts. You can always blame the booze.

Words to live by. And I have.

do guys let themselves be whipped cause they like the girl or cause of where it could lead?

I have a problem with guys who hint they like you but never out right say it. A woman doesn't want to make him say it, she wants him to say it cause he wants to. I will say that I haven't been that ballsy myself but it's what we're thinking.

Because I genuinely like a girl. I just don't want some silly disagreement to result in a fight or her harboring resentment. So I cave.

But it's a slippery slope - first you do a few things she wants you to, soon you're quitting smoking, then she starts dressing you and telling you how to cut your hair. That's when you got to put your foot down.

^^ do you find harboring this against her later though when there are bumps in the relationship?

Well,let me clarify that I was never actually groomed and dressed by my former girlfriends. But I've heard tale...

I did kinda resent the smoking thing, but I should have been honest with her and said I wasn't going to be able to quit just yet. So I got over it. For some reason, I really liked keeping that secret from her. It was like a game I played. Looks like I have my own issues.

But that relationship ended all because of me. I was in love with someone else. I think maybe the fact that she was so demanding soured her in my mind, but the plain fact was that I didn't love her. If the other girl wasn't an issue, I could see the relationship lasting longer and perhaps developing much deeper feelings for her.

Listen, the reason guy's dont come out and say it is because weve all been burned. And you women arent always the masters of tact.

It takes alot for guys (who try to be unemotional) to reveal that they have feelings for you.

Once we're in the relationship we have no probelms telling you men what we want. I try not to at least. I'm finding hard at the moment with the man in my life who is unemotional trying to get him to tell me stuff and see my side, he says I'm being inconsiderate. Why do guys use that when we ask for alittle more from you???

Women can be demanding but sometimes and not every guy uses guilt to keep a GF. I know that from first hand experince

Men dont use guilt. Women use guilt. Not all women, but lots.


Women, just try not to be passive aggressive. That is really sucky

my ex used lots of guilt. It's always baby please don't leave me I'd be lost without you type of line.

Is it worse to just go off and get angry instead?

My long 2 cents on the subject!!! I was the king of 'whipped' for 2 years.

I actually think it's a flawed personality in the women that creates the whipped man.

There is a strong desire in men, particularly young men, to want to please a women in every way. Women with poor character will take this desire in the man and twist it to suit every one of thier needs. The man becomes 'whipped' and now the women has a good reason to dump him when she gets tired of him.

I think if you are a good women, the chances of the man being whipped drop from about 80% to 5%. You still have some guys that will be whipped, but it's much rarer.

The whipped man soon learns and one of 3 things happens to him --

1. He continues to be whipped and leads a unhappy life
2. He becomes very bitter towards women
3. He becomes smart and learns how to 'play the game'

Learning 'how to play the game' means the man keeps his distance from women. If he dates a women on Monday and she says 'Call me later this week' the man will call on Friday. He becomes the anti-whipped man. He may date and be very nice to women, but he always keeps some distance between himself and the women. This actually works very well for men. The huge downside???? Romance suffers. The grand romantic gestures disappear because the man is afraid they will lead to the path of being whipped. So he avoids the much of the romantic stuff.

Eventually the smart men will find 'the one' and hopefully by that time he's learned how to be comfortable with himself and have a good solid relationship with the women.

Why would anyone want a whipped man?

I agree. I knowthis family where the mother was very passive and let the father walk all over her. All of the sons are now with domineering women (complete opposite of their mom) and they are whipped so bad, it is embarrassing. Sure, sometimes I wish I had a little more say in what Tom did, but I could never live with him completely whipped. I wouldn't respect him and I don't respect these guys.

I think a person be it man or woman being described as 'whipped' usually has very poor self esteem issues. There is a difference between someone who doesnt mind doing things all the time versus the person who feels they must do things all the time in order to be validated by themselves or another.
If no one supports this person as being valid, the person will look for attention, be it bad attention or good attention(usually bad).

The person on the other end of this is the controller. Control equals power yet the controller also has self esteem issues and feels the need to control another 'validates' them either to themselves or publicly.

This is a two way street.

Exactly. That's the basis of my point, it's a two way street. Behind every whipped man is a women with some control issues.

If a woman is being controlling, bottom line, the relationship is over. I've been whipped before. At first you think "Okay, doing things for her makes me feel chivalrous". Next it's "Doing all these things for her is getting tiring". Finally you just realize that you don't enjoy the relationship because there is no give/take. Soon it's all her taking and you giving.

Clingyness seems to always bother guys. It doesn't really bother me because if I'm going out with a girl that means I like her. And if I like her then I want to be around her. The point at which clingyness becomes unbearable is when you actually have stuff you need to do but they complain about you doing it.

Good point about clingyness BTB!

I never minded clingyness until the women started changing her personality to become even more clingy. I lusted after 'mall shoe store girl' for a long time. She was so hot. We dated and it was cool (although she moved way too fast in the physical part of the relationship. Not good). But then she started changing her personality to suit what she thought I wanted. It was like see was trying to justify her clingyness ("I'll go with you to the guitar store, I love shopping for guitars'. Oh please, gimme a break).

It eventually become smothering.

Absolutely it takes two. I guess I was thinking of the times I've caught myself thinking that I need to just tell hubby what to do, or what I want, or have him cater in some way to me, (I'll admit, sometimes it's tempting). But then I think of all the controlling women, (some in my family), who do that and how truly awful it is to watch.

. . . . plus hubby would never go for it.

When done in a playfull way, catering to someone can be kind of fun.

Mrs RC set a whole series of conditions (ridiculously all in her favor) in exchange for a certain winter sport. It was all in good fun. But there is no way I'd seriously consent to those conditions on a regular basis. But for the one time, I didn't mind being a little whipped.

I don't count that stuff.

I have a issue with being clingy. More so now than eariler. In the begining with the brit it was him always wanting me to be with him, do things with him, call him. it was like we were attached at the hip. It was hard for me to do, but I found a groove that I managed to work with his schedule. Now that he has his daugther and a new business he wants me around yes and to do things for him, but I want the same and it's hard for me to get an he pulls out the, "I can't be with you 24 hrs a day lizzy" I don't get it. so if I back off he gets in a pissy mood. Men are complicated to me. so I don't know if I'm being a good finace or a bad one?

I did this with Tom in the beginning. I used to never drink (and I don't anymore) yet I'd call him up to meet me at the bar. I started playing darts, I would want to see crappy action flicks. Finally, something happened one day and something inside me snapped and I hit bottom, at least to myself. It wasn't anything major, I just realized what a fool I was making of myself and I got very angry with myself. And then I started taking it out on him, and saying, no, I don't want to see that movie, no, I don't want to do that, and by the way, that pi$$ed me off. Once I stopped being a doormat and, in all honestly, once I started talking back and standing up for myself, the relationship totally changed. If I had never stood my ground, we would not be together today. I'm pretty ashamed of myself for how I acted in some situations, and he knows that he was wrong about a lot (we had a long conversation about this ON our honeymoon--basically how lucky we were that we stopped playing games and grew up). It's not good to be whipped, in either case. And it is total self-esteem, because I never had it and I never really will and that is a major part of a happy life.



I think you're a good financee. You put up with a lot of family crap, you guys have serious talks all the time and you obviously love him. You just need more time alone together.

Liz, you're a great fiance! You can tell by your posts that you care a lot about The Brit!

thank you for saying so. I like to think we're pretty much balanced, but some days it feels so off. I do love the big british pain the arse. I have given into something for him, my sudden interest of soccer.(football). Thats the only thing Ive changed. I found I like it though now.

Do you believe too much indepence is bad for a relationship however? Both men and women don't want over clingy partners but sometimes that part about a person you love isn't enough to keep them. It's hard to define that line. You don't want to change but you find yourself doing it sometimes with out thought.

Sometimes. There was an episode of The King of Queens once where they started sleeping in seperate beds for convienence (sp?), then seeing different movies, then eating different dinners and then they realized they needed to bring it back to each other or they would lose it all. Tom likes to go out and I don't (this is pre-Jay) and he owuld hang out on Friday nights at the bar with my brother and his brother and I would always feel that there was something wrong about that, but I couldn't make myself go. That doesn't really answer your question--I guess if you think about it, in reality, you don't need to be with someone to live your life. You choose to have them in your life and if you're not willing to make the compromises (like the bar) then they may leave. Every once in a while I would go to show my face in public and remind people that he has a wife!