This is certainly one of to ways this could play out.

I think the more likely way is Chuck and Sarah convincing the General there is nothing going on, that may lead to the much discussed secret relationship; I believe that was the original outline for the show, the entire real relationship is a no-no aspect and fake relationship for Chuck's friends and family is begging to be flipped around to a real relationship presented as fake to the government.

But, with ratings being marginal and all this talk about game-changers at the end of the season we may get something different. Chuck using the you need me arguement makes a lot of sense. The general did just admit to this and even called Chuck a spy. This really opens the door to Chuck taking a stand; "I will help you however I can, I know you need me, I need Casey and Sarah here until I say they go. And what we do in our down time is none of your concern."

Thats a good point though. What exactly does fulcrum want? I mean I know they want the intersect but is this really just a fight between two conflicting intelligence agencies or is there something bigger? I would be disappointed if all this fighting was just about what the fulcrum agent said in lethal weapon.

RE: Chuck being trained as a spy.

With some comments made after the general's comments during [Predator] I heard her comments as more manipulative. I made a long post concerning the differing roles of Chuck's handlers in the 2.17 thread, but the part I'm going to reference part of my argument here, namely that Sarah is the carrot, and Casey is the stick. Sarah's job was to control, while Casey's job was to contain. The general, as military expects for the stick to completely control both handlers, as in some sense they are both agents set in a rigid structure of conduct, and it happens to be what is currently going to get Sarah in trouble.

It was my interpretation that the general doesn't want Chuck to be an agent, she wants him to realize that he is involved in this intelligence war, and she is trying to use the carrot to motivate him, unsuccessfully. She is beginning to realize that to use Chuck as a tool/weapon in her fight against Fulcrum, that he cannot be contained. He goes against orders that aren't justified (and some that are, just b/c he is a stubborn guy), and questions her decisions. Her options in black and white are to use the tool, or to lock it away so that the other team cannot get it (bunkerization). She tried to complement him, but wasn't using what he wanted as incentive. Praising his usefulness in a world he doesn't want to be involved, only stressed the situation, given that he feels that he has no options to pursue his own path, save to go an independant route. 'Its time you became a spy', to me wasn't the general offering training, it was more of a demand he begin to respect the containment (stick) of rules and conduct as his handlers do (or did, both Sarah and Casey are starting to veer away from the strict stick interpretation (Casey openly mocking the comment that Chuck is a vital asset, Sarah openly questioning Beckman's decision to refuse and even prevent Chuck's exit from the intelligence world).

RE: Why not just allow Sarah to pursue the relationship to control Chuck? To 'sweeten the reward' for Chuck? Why replace her with Agent Forrest?


Pompous to quote myself, but I didn't feel like retyping it. Beckman, most likely, doesn't understand the depth of what Chuck/Sarah represent to each other. Sarah, a talented agent and noted seductress, was the CIA's carrot. Beckman sees her as the carrot still, which supposedly is only a fragment of what Sarah means to Chuck. The stick hurts, no matter who is wielding it, so even if Casey doesn't like the boundaries, all he has to do is enforce them, but for someone who obviously defies containment (no following orders, always questioning decisions), the stick only goes so far, until Chuck believes in the boundaries. Sadly, if something drastic happened to one of Chuck's loved ones, Ellie/Awesome/Morgan/parents, and Chuck came to the SELF-realization that he could prevent that tragedy by following the rules, then the stick is all he would need. He has been told, by Sarah, that he is a hero, and that no one else can do what he did etc. Hell on the job and year and change and he is a notable mention of the opposing team. But he doesn't want to believe it. He wants to put his head back into the sand, partially because right now, thats where the carrot really is. He wants to be safe and get the girl. With the current situation, he can't get the real carrot until he is out of the spy world, until Sarah changes that possibility. He definitely would be more inclined to stay in the dangerous world if he was allowed to have his relationship with Sarah, because he would have a personal investment in following procedure and protecting her, in whatever method he has at his disposal.

Concerning Forrest, if Beckman doesn't feel that Sarah is controlling Chuck exactly to where she wants (ie Sarah blindly leads Chuck to follow commands), then she probably thinks replacing her with another carrot, more physically aggresive or risque (probably another mis-read by Beckman), then Chuck will be under control again, this time with someone who does not have the mind nor inclination (compromised agent) to even question orders.

In [Lethal Weapon], didn't the Fulcrum agent say that they were doing it for the 'good of America' or something similar? Even if they are both trying to 'save America' from one thing or another, their dream of what the end result of such action probably definitely differ. Fulcrum is a least a cell of agents who are using intelligence community methods and technology to try and change the status quo. Do they want control of the U.S. government? For our own good of course, could the leadership of Fulcrum think that their decisions and opinions should supercede that of the populous? (read Fulcrum as 95% of all politicians). If that is the fight, over the control of the American government, or at least its power base, then that is a fight/goal that would be worthy to have the show orbit for a while. If this is what Fulcrum really wants (and not just how they motivated that one agent to defect (ie SD-6 recruits each person seperately)), then to me it looks like Bryce Larkin actions on Chuck initially model this. A person/group thinking they are doing the best thing possible to protect Chuck/the US, by doing a terrible action using the justification that the ends justify the means. All the while letting Chuck/DNI begin to respond to the assault, albeit at a different pace, but now both Chuck and the DNI are both fighting against the results of those initial actions. Chuck is trying to right his life, with help from Sarah and the DNI, and the DNI is trying to regain its own power with help from Chuck.

Oh an a small disclaimer. I don't know that ANY of this is true, however I'm trying to make some of the actions in the show to make sense, and logically I can wrap my head around these motivations and characterizations. I'm not trying to make the technology arguments/ethical arguments brought up by this show, just the characters.

I believe the Fulcrum agent said they were "Defending or Protecting Americas rightful place in the world".

Josh will never allow that. He needs the angst.

They do need romantic tension as part of the show, that much is true. The angst just needs to change form. It seems to going away from do they like/love each other (last addressed in [Beefcake/Lethal Weapon]) more to a when will they let their damn guards down at the same time. If they are going to get together, its going to be in secret first. It will be at the end of the 3rd season, if it exists in which Beckman becomes aware (and not just suspects) the true state of their involvment, in my opinion.

They are going to have to deal with Sarah's seduction of other men in a whole new light, as well as other complications. The difficulties of managing a secret relationship, even with the help of Casey would be tenuous on the relationship, there is your angst. Hurt feelings while they work through their problems.

But Zach said they never get together because they are not allowed to.

I don't think that is exactly what Zac was saying. They are not allowed to get together, and the writers are going to keep them apart as long as possible, but they also have to give the audience real hope of more before they lose the plot. So, I think that means we will start to see things get a little heated soon.

Chuck will always be in control because he knows the entire Intersect and Fulcrum Intersect, whereas nobody else does. As long as he holds that Ace up his sleeve, the General, Casey, Sarah, Agent Forrester and anyone else cannot argue with him because he can just flash on an Intersect fact to prove them wrong.

That's why I am of the position that Chuck should either be assigned as a high ranking senior analyst to General Beckman or given a DO (Director of Operations) job. If I were General Beckman, I would pull Chuck aside, and offer him a job as a senior analyst first, and after a few months of successfully directing field operations, then promote him to DO level. Let Chuck manage Casey, Sarah, Bryce, Cole, etc...

A lot easier than micro-managing the operation herself.

At this point, Chuck has demonstrated that he is smarter than all of them. He SHOULD probably be running the operation.

Since Chuck has both Intersect's information in his head, does this make him an equal of Orion? He may have all the information he needs to "remove" the Intersect without the help of Orion?

This 2nd season is pretty much wrapped up at this point, and I'll watch until the end, but, if Chuck and Sarah are not unequivocally together by the finale, I don't think I'll return for season 3. At this point, keeping the two apart is looking more and more juvenile to me. If the producers don't possess the wealth of creativity to bring the heroes together and keep things interesting then things just don't look good to me.

Everyone appears to reference "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" as an example of how to handle the two as a couple, but I present Maxwell Smart and Agent 99 as another way to go. Smart was always hapless and a bit clumsy (sound familiar) while 99 was the sturdy one in control. Heck, Casey's frustrations with Chuck remind me of Chief's struggles with Smart.

Rejoice! You will get to watch Season 3 because it is a fait accompli that Chuck and Sarah will be together by the end of Season 2.

I agree. It's just the transition plan I was stating.

Although Chuck has shown exceptional ability in the field both as an operative and as an analyst, he is relatively unknown to other management staff in the CIA and NSA. He needs time to work alongside General Beckman to get to know these people, as well as understand the inner workings and objectives of the CIA and NSA.

Once Chuck builds relationships with staff within the CIA and NSA, plus understand the overarching goals and objectives of the intelligence agencies, he will be able to lead effectively and command respect from his subordinates.

In vs the Lethal Weapon, Sarah told Cole she would not cheat on Chuck, so effectively they are together, just not openly.

Also in vs the Lethal Weapon, Chuck said he wouldn't let the Intersect get in the way of them getting together for real, so only when the series ends and Chuck removes the Intersect from his memory will he officially and openly get together with Sarah.

From now till then, there will be angst.

Nope. From now to season end there will be romance.

I think there was a context to that quote. The interview I read he was clearly talking about the show so far, and not giving away anything about the future.

Also JS/CF have clearly said they could draw it out a long time, but are aware people are loosing patience. I think the relationship will develope in meaningful ways by the end of the season, possibly a great deal in this episode.

Hope so. Angst is a bit juvenile at this point.

I have to agree. There should be some real progress by then.

About the romantic side of chuck and sarah's relationship it seems like they have pretty much covered the whole angsty part of the relationship. I think there are many more interesting possibilities if the two of them actually have a real relationship, the writers could do so much more with that situation.

And this is different from the CIA/NSA how? After all, Beckman was gonna' have Chuck shot after a year of helpful service.

Beckman IMO is a prime example of the Peter principle... a person is promoted to his/her level of incompetence.

Like any government/military operation you find all types. Beckman is more than just incompetent, she is completely corupt. I would love to see the infamous kill order go out again, but this time Casey tells Sarah and they take Chuck underground until they expose her obviously illegal treatment of an innocent American citizen and she's hauled off in chains. Of course, I don't really see it playing out this way; my guess is Chuck will become a permanent agent and the kill order will never come up again.

I am fairly confident this has already been speculated on, but I am unsure so I will post it anyway.

In reference to the title "Broken Heart", I imagine that Sarah will end up finding the cards that Chuck received from Orion. This would make sense because it would push the idea that Chuck does not trust Sarah. In this I think she is wrong. By her not seeing the cards and knowing what Chuck does she has a certain level of deniability. This could be seen as incompetence, however, short of locking Chuck in a bunker I imagine it would be difficult to monitor what he has/does not have access to.

I am looking forward to this episode as I still have the belief that Sarah seeing Chuck not trusting her would be "heartbreaking" for her.

I also know that another poster said something as well, but the guy who was Orion on the screen reminded me a lot of Bryce. I am not saying that Bryce is Orion, just that he may have been working with him?

What if chuck and Sara get together at the end of the season - and the following season, they are forced out of retirement to go back into service when Casey is captured .....

No matter what happens in season 2, I am sure that within 3 episodes, everything will be reset anyway.

I agree with posters that say the Chuck/Sarah angle will be the focus of this episode as Chuck will see urgency in loosing her. At the end of LW Chuck is all about Orion and that played out to an extent in Preditor. Now I think Sarah's suspension will happen early on, possible during the opening credits of this show, hopefully with Cuck being there when Beckman plays a copy of the tape with Sarah choosing Chuck over Cole. This is the only time she's opened up and other then her confronting the General in Preditor the only time she could be suspended with hard evidence. Beckman does not want to break up Team Chuck as she mentions they are the most successful team she has.

Chuck seeing Sarah's commitment will wipe out the trust issues and give them an opportunity to expand on the relationship angle, if not just for a moment. The preview shows Chuck being abducted and Sarah coming to his rescue against orders. I see another Charah moment where they kiss/talk much like when thier first "bomb" scene. I don't see much of the "Agent Bartkowski" in this episode. I see heartbreak at Sarah's abduction and then her coming to his rescue while confronting the new agent. The viewers will be then left wondering if they kissed due to fear of loosing one another or giving up to their emotions and feelings.

Just a thought.

I'm not so certain that Beckman is generally incompetent as opposed to simply being desperate or panicked. For most of the series she's given team Chuck fairly free rein, largely confining her role to that of liaison with the rest of the intelligence community. She gives them missions, provides them with timely intel and debriefs them. Her involvement with the team has always seemed more a function of Chuck's importance and the need for secrecy than any desire to micromanage on her part. She's involved directly with the intersect team because she doesn't trust anyone else. Her actions in Predator and assumed actions in Broken Heart almost seem out of character.

It's fairly obvious that the loyalist factions of the US intelligence agencies are currently losing the war with Fulcrum. Whether Beckman is competent or not she's still a high level bureaucrat, and the knee jerk reaction of bureaucrats to organizational failure is assume incompetency in subordinates and take direct control. Beckman can't assume direct control of all or even a tiny fraction of all operations in the vast US intelligence apparatus so she's focused her energies on the operation she sees as her best weapon in the fight against Fulcrum, team Chuck.

It's possible if everything had gone smoothly during her visit that Beckman would have come to her senses, focused her energies elsewhere, and let her most successful team continue to bleed Fulcrum white in the CD aisles of Buymoria. Of course, smooth and team Chuck don't exactly go hand in hand. Chuck sneaks out to use the forbidden laptop and is abducted by Fulcrum, Sarah wears her feelings for Chuck so transparently, she and Chuck might as well have reenacted the Seduction kiss, and even Casey voices and grunts in opposition to the general. Beckman was looking for problems in her flagship operation and she thinks she found one. My guess is that she'll eventually come to her senses. Of course, I also suspect that she's the major character that will be killed off by the end of the season, either in a direct assassination by Fulcrum, or in order to protect Chuck or his identity.

i love how "Agent Carmichael" started out as a joke and now fulcrum agents are talking about him like he's some super evasive spy for the CIA..

LOVE it..

oh and Casey WILL disobey a direct order from a superior (likely Beckman) to save Chuck or Sarah.. and it will be AWESOME..

Broken hearts: Papa B. and Ellie twice. First over Papa B., then over Awesome. I think the engagement will break up due to something in Awesome's past before they finally get married. I still think the writers may recycle the Awesome as Russian agent idea given the number of Russian names showing up. I just think they've changed the story to make Awesome a permanent part of Team Bartowski.

Including Awesome into the spy world, at least in part possibly, but I doubt they are going to go the Russian agent way. The character, albeit a side character, is popular and too much of a good foil for the stereotypical super-spy alpha males, similar to Chuck.

Hmmm. My guesses for broken hearts? I would have to say Chuck and Sarah (and maybe Casey depending on how good Agent Forrest is). I don't think the heart breaking will be initial. It will be something angsty like, when she gets reassigned she admits how she really feels, then Sarah gets reinstated as his handler and says 'its unprofessional', we can't do this.

Awesome would be completely not awesome, nor consistent if he lets anything happen during his bachelor party. However given the information that Jeff and Lester are there, compromising photos might come to light that make it look like he partied a bit too hard, making an already emotional Ellie pissed off.

I still think the broken heart is Chuck's, firstly, purely because it's in the title, and usually the title refers to an issue of Chuck's (ie the best friend, the break up, the seduction, the suburbs) so I reckon it's gotta be between Chuck/Sarah.

Then I think there are 2 possible things it could refer to:

1. Chuck's, after Sarah gets reassigned/evaluated - broken hearted because she could be leaving. etc, etc.

2. Sarah's, after she discovers/finds out about the plans that Orion gave Chuck.

I'm still trying to figure out whether Sarah went over to Chuck's room (in Versus The Predator) just to see him, make sure he was ok (what I think, and want to believe), or because she was watching him on the cameras and went over to see if he really did trust her.

I don't think this is the case, just an idea to throw out there.

I think that this is the episode where Chuck starts to realize Sarah's commitment to him, up until now we have seen it but now I think he will too. That she is pulled off the job for being too close to him and that - as the promo says- she doesn't go without a fight will make things clear to him. This in turn has him telling her about the intersect schematics and possibly his chart ( that one will be harder for him as she is on it) although possibly not showing them to her yet. Also the fact that she is the one being punished for the relationship, or at least in the organization's eyes she is ( really both are being punished, it's just that she is the one paying the price) might make it clear to him that her lack of verbal commitment is due to both personal (bad at relationships) and professional reasons. The predator was mostly plot driven, how could " the broken heart" not be about personal issues.

Romance in the traditional sense? I don't think so, at least until the last episode or two of this season.

Flashes of romantic possibility? Possibly.

Progress in their relationship (even if there are temporary setbacks)? Surely.

My guess is that they'll do more to acknowledge the mutual longing, but things will be kept at an arms length until the close of this storyline. They may even jump into "friends/partners mode" for a bit. Chuck seems keenly focused on the big picture of unraveling the mysteries of the Intersect before he's willing to push a little further on pursuing Sarah.

I agree with you on all your points. Especially when you said "I'm still trying to figure out whether Sarah went over to Chuck's room (in Versus The Predator) just to see him, make sure he was ok (what I think, and want to believe), or because she was watching him on the cameras and went over to see if he really did trust her."

If you watched carefully, Sarah stares at the position of where the cards were placed at. So basically you see her looking at Chucks stomach. I think the Director would tell her to redo that scene if it wasnt meant to happen, because that basically gives us a big hint that she probably did see the scamatics. (sorry for spelling)

I to like the Carmichael mystique starting to build. In fact I can see it growing to the point that Fulcrum warns there agents that Agent Carmichael is dangerous and to be very careful if confronted by him.

As far as Casey, he has not fully followed orders for Chuck and Sarah in The Marlin. He told Sarah he would go after the Pita Girl and she would go after Chuck saying "Hurry up before I change my mind."

So what do we have so far,

We see Chuck on a mission with Agent Forrest with Sarah listening in and he flashes on some Fulcrum baddies and is nearly being seen by Ellie. Could this be where Forrest is going to snatch Awesome's credentials without Chuck knowing? This part must come at the beginning since it appears they are all working together.

Now it has been reported that Agent Forrest the stripper will appear at the Bachelor party to attempt to seduce Awesome. Will Chuck be aware that she going to show up? Is this in the middle of episode?

We know that Sarah will be terminated from Operation Chuck by Beckman. Will this also be in the middle of epi right after the Bachelor party? We do see Chuck and Sarah together looking sad in the promo .

Just tryin' to piece this together from a timeline perspective.

It seems like Agent Forrest doesn't know that Sarah's listening in cuz as soon as Sarah points out Elle's proximity he shushes her. What do you guys think?

I am becoming less and less intrigued by the potential of finding out spoilers. I did the same thing toward the end of BSG... I didn't want to know too much. But I do enjoy the spoilers for this show. The officials ones are actually getting better.

After watching the promo for this episode I have come up with this tiny observation. I know that many are concerned with the whole Charah dynamic and where it is going, etc. In the opening scene of the promo where we see Chuck and Sarah with Sarah's hand on the side of Chuck's neck. I'm obviously unsure of what that situation entails, but merely the act of her hand on the side of his neck is showing some affection towards Chuck. IMO, that is a big step for Sarah because she really doesn't show much affection towards Chuck if its not a 'cover' moment. We saw the 'Chuck you're so sweet' comment when she puts her hand on his arm then she quickly retracts back, but the scene in the promo looks completely different. I have a feeling that we may see Sarah show off some true feelings in this episode.

Ok, this may seem way out there, but what if the broken heart in this episode isn't, or isn't merely, romance related? If you remember, the bracelet Chuck gave Sarah has a heart on it, and it was also something that his father gave his mother for good luck and, presumably, protection. If his parents are indeed involved in the spy world in some way, especially as Orion or someone related to Orion, then there could perhaps be some connection between the bracelet and the intersect, or at least the spy world more generally. The heart on the bracelet could be the one that breaks, revealing something important to Chuck's search. And it would also move the plot forward in a way that brought together the romance plot with the Orion/Intersect plot. Anyway, just a thought.

Perhaps initially, but then she put her hand to the ear and gets the gun ready.

^Ral

Excellent observation! Have you seen the other promo clip for this episode? It involves Chuck and Agent Forrest masquerading as a doctor and a nurse at Ellie and Awesome's hospital. Perhaps someone literally has a broken heart. Just a thought.

That makes sense, especially since Devon has already noted that he's specializing in cardiac medicine.

Yep... several people have brought that up before. That the patient is the one with a "broken heart." I think that is very likely.

I hope you are right on this but I'm still not sure. If you look at Chuck's face in that scene. It doesn't look like Sarah is telling him something that he wants to here. I would thing if she was telling him she was in love with him or something to that effect that he would have a big grin on his face or at least a smile (at least I know I would if Sarah said she loves me )

Both of them don't look like the happiest of campers, but it looks like it could be a Sarah consoling Chuck moment that could be on the personal level. Who knows? Gotta wait til Monday.

That scene, to me, seems to show Sarah consoling Chuck in some way, it looks like he is saddened by something and she is helping him deal with it, offering support.

It is entirely possible. Especially with the information shown in the new Subway promo. I'm still banking on an double meaning.

there's always a double meaning in chuck's episode titles, sometimes even triple